by jacquin cunningham
images kate vitali
images kate vitali
the same people who made fun of Momo’s work, and me, started praising it. And I thought, “wow, so disgusting!” I felt that they are so lame.
Jacquin Cunningham: I wanted to ask you one thing which is funny because it’s a little memory of the first time I came here. I was 20 years old and was talking to you years ago, and I was talking about London, and you said, “you should move back to new York because everyone in London is a bit difficult sometimes.”
Miwa Susuda: Ha! (laughs) Did I say that?!
JC: You did!
MS: Maybe I find that the people in London are very similar to the people in Tokyo—we have such a deep rich tradition and legend. And we kind of follow the past and the conventional ideas. Well, people in London are known for their music, fashion, creativity—same as the Japanese people—but in New York, everybody comes from elsewhere and we don’t have a deep history or some kind of sticky tradition to follow. This is a place where society asks you to show everything you got. And no other city—Paris, Tokyo, London—doesn’t ask us to show who we are. Otherwise, why don’t you just live outside of New York? You don’t need to stay here.
JC: Yeah, you could live anywhere else.
MS: Yeah! And I don’t mean that Paris or Tokyo is bad… it’s that this place is unique.
JC: I found that when I moved here even the community of photographers here was not better or worse, but just really interested in each other’s work in a way they’re not in other places.
MS: 100%. I think that uniqueness and originality is the key to stand out and then just to be yourself. And if you make work, you shouldn’t just show 80% of who you are. You need to show 120% of who you are. Then you become noticed.
JC: And when was the first time you started to love photography? Was it when you were younger?
MS: Yes, 100% (laughs). I grew up in Japan in the 80s and 90s and my mom used such nice cosmetic brands like Clé de Peau and would bring home fancy pamphlets from the department store. Have you ever heard of Takashimaya? It’s a very fancy, like Dover Street. No, more conservative than that. Harrods! And I saw Christy Turlington on the packaging, and she looked so fancy. The pictures were taken by a famous person like Avedon or Helmut Newton. So, I started my love of photography from fashion and then beauty and printed matter.
JC: I read somewhere that Atsushi Nakajima’s Moon Over the Mountain was important to you.
MS: Yes!
I think that everyone has a beast in their heart. If you don’t know how to take care of this, you don’t ever become who you really are. I think that to recognize your beast, you need to take care of it. If your beast says, “Miwa, do this and do that,” you need to follow it. And then I noticed that especially— and I don’t mean to think less of my people—Japanese people have a big idea and then everyone is so unique, but when you work with Japanese people in group, they can lose individuality. Every Japanese person is so smart and much more creative than you think they are. But they need to nurture the beasts in their hearts and follow their instincts. And it’s worse that you care about being scared and self-protection. My validation is that if I have some kind of pop-y idea, I just want to do it! That’s the reason why I started a YouTube. Even though it seems like it’s too late to launch a YouTube channel, I felt like I could spread the word more in an inventive way. Because I started as a writer, interviewing artists and writing reviews of books, I felt the conventional way of introducing artists and books is too quiet.
JC: Yeah, I watched the first one last night!
MS: So academic!
JC: It was good, I really liked it. With Genesis Baez.
MS: I’m very happy to expand my YouTube channel to not just super smart, academic people, like Justine Kurland and Genesis Baez, as well. I think the beauty of photography is that it’s for everyone—it’s very democratic. Being accessible is the beauty of photography and yes, it works for smart people like Genesis and Justine who went to Yale and have a strong idea of what photography is about. I also think I want to celebrate any type of photography.
JC: And you came to New York to study with Valerie Steele—
MS: Oh! You know her?! She’s so smart.
JC: A lot of people know her as the lady who wrote the best book on corsets. But you also worked across art, and an immigration lawyer’s office before Dashwood. What made you want to change?
MS: Ha! So jumpy, right? When I was in Japan, I studied philosophy. Before college, I was into Eastern thinking, like Buddhism. I started wondering why we are alive, what for, and why we fight each other all the time. I tried to find some kind of universal understanding of humankind. Religion and philosophy seemed like my answer. I noticed that it’s impossible to comprehend the world from one idea. And then I wanted to really practice and follow my instinct. I read Jean Paul Sartre in college, who said, “if you want to be a writer, get a pen and paper and start writing.” For me, this was giving up all ego and all the desire. But Buddhism is deeper than all that. It’s just the surface of it. When I was 18, I followed Sartre and followed my desire to do whatever I want.
JC: You started Session Press 13 years ago now. Was that you letting out your beast?
MS: It came from my kind of habit of caring about other people. My first book is Kohey Kanno’s Honeymoon. He kept complaining that he didn’t have money to finish the book. I wanted to help him. And he said he didn’t know how to lay out the images, so I helped him. That’s how I started Session Press. He’s the one who introduced me to Momo Okabe, and we made Dildo together. She used to be a lesbian—no more. She’s fluid. So, she went out with two people at the time, and one went out to Thailand for a sex change because he is a transgender man. And she went with her friend Yoko who changed his body. The book is made by hand.
JC: So, when you got introduced to Momo Okabe, what was the thing that really drew you to the work?
MS: You know, I sound too simple… It’s just beautiful! And I couldn’t deny it. She’s just amazing. So, I just jumped on it. I didn’t have to think. If I have to think about whether to make a book or not, that’s a red flag. I didn’t even think about it; I loved her work right away. But I remember when I made this book and put it out over there, many people didn’t like it! Their first reactions? “Oh, Asian woman became a lesbian and went to Thailand for sex change surgery, very cliché.” Like an attention-freak kind of book. That’s what they told me, and it broke my heart. Because for me, it is beautiful. For other people, it was self-promotional or disgusting. So, New Yorkers like to say they are a very progressive society, but it’s not. Some people don’t get it. But its ok! They don’t have to love it. But I was shocked.
JC: That is surprising, but what year did you release this?
MS: 2013.
JC: It’s crazy to think about how far everyone has come since 2013 even.
MS: Yeah. And when she got a big prize from a formal museum, people started saying, “wow, she’s great!” (Comedically clapping.)
JC: People are really obsessed with accolades and recognition. New York is so special because everyone gets to do what they want to do. But sometimes it can make people really narcissistic too.
MS: 100%.
JC: And you get things like Momo Okabe’s Dildo that are so brilliant , and people can’t deal with it because it’s not about them. The experience of Okabe’s friend is so singular that I think some people were probably just afraid they couldn’t relate to it themselves.
MS: I know! They don’t want to know what they don’t know. I think the power of not knowing is so strong. But the majority of us, maybe including me, are so scared of knowing what we don’t know. Even though you don’t understand what you don’t know, you need to be always open-minded and have some kind of room to try to see and listen. You know? This is another book by Momo Okabe.
JC: Bible.
MS: You’re going to like it! The starting image is her picture (opens to first page of Okabe fingering a vagina).
JC: Starts right off!
MS: I love Momo Okabe because she’s showing who she is 120%. The majority of people are so scared to show who they are.
JC: And it’s funny because I remember when I started do this magazine even, I wasn’t doing everything that I wanted. And as soon as I said, “I don’t care anymore, I’m going to do exactly what I want,” (Miwa laughs) then everyone thought that’s great.
MS: People smell it!
JC: It’s like how bees can smell fear and sting you. There are so many points of commonality in it as well. It’s kind of like a dream with the wash of colors.
MS: So, when she broke up with both of them, Yoko and her other friend, Kaori, she started going out with a guy who was mentally kind of, ill. He took her to some night club in Tokyo. And you might notice many images of distractions, like garbage. (Pointing to an image of a man using a sounding rod) I think that’s him.
JC: One photographer said to me that he wouldn’t photograph anything he wouldn’t do himself. And I think you can really tell when people are photographing their own lived experience. And that’s not to say that people who photograph things they haven’t lived are worse, but it’s a different feeling. I think this is really quick to connect to visually since nothing is being hidden.
MS: I really hope that she keeps this way. And I’m saying this because many Japanese people try to follow an American way of taking pictures because of the internet and the art fairs. Nothing wrong with having art fairs, but they try to be nominated for best book of the year. Nothing wrong with that. But there is no authority with the US. We don’t have follow the norm. (Susuda pounds her fist on a stack of Session Press titles defiantly) I hope that Japanese people stay unique and original. I hope they don’t make work just the same as Americans. And one of the beauties of Dashwood is that we divide the sections by nationality. Just because my boss recognized that each nationality has their own way of feeling and associating with society. And I hope Japanese people never become like Roe Ethridge or Danny Lyon, I hope they just be Japanese. Don’t you feel that?
JC: Yeah, I feel that. That’s why I think it’s so important what you’re doing with Session Press, because in championing Japanese, East Asian photographers—
MS: It’s ok to be Asian!
JC: You’re an outpost in America saying, “you can still produce your work. This work is valuable in America.” So, it’s great you have that power to then tell gallerists and collectors that this is good work.
MS: I want to show them what they don’t know. What they don’t understand. Many people go to Japan now, they’re shopping and having a good time. But they’re just seeing the surface of it. Because I grew up there until the age of 23, I’m more Japanese than American. So, I can show them a genuine feeling of who we are. So, this is Ren Hang: New Love and
Athens Love.
JC: This is a book that captured a lot of people’s imaginations.
MS: Don’t you think it’s so beautiful?
JC: I remember when these books came out in 2015/2016.
MS: Oh, you do!
JC: I feel like it was so impactful.
MS: It’s a shame that his family members don’t like me to post it online too much. I think the cover of the book is ok, but the inside I don’t think I can show other people. I wish that I would have known he was so depressed, and that I could have been somebody that listened to him.
JC: It’s lovely that in you producing this book, he lives on. A powerful thing to give someone—whether you know what’s going on with someone or not. It’s so important for people to become part of the record of what photography is. And I think you agree that the book is the best way to view photography. Taking the image is only one part of the process, and photography is about letting other people see it on the page.
MS: Thinking about it all is too heavy for me. Quin, how old are you?
JC: I’m 24.
MS: So, may I ask you, as a young person, do you appreciate the physicality of the book? Do you think books are going to survive?
JC: I think so.
MS: But you guys have grown up with everything so available. Why do you enjoy physical books? They take up space and cost.
JC: But when everything is online, to have something physical is so impactful. I grew up before everything was online, didn’t grow up going to school with computers until I was older. We were all about books, and because I always loved photography and art, it was always about the material for me. A lot of young people now are realizing that they post something online and nobody looks at it.
MS: I know! Too ubiquitous.
JC: Everything is everywhere.
MS: So fast and nothing is special.
JC: But when you get to produce books like Ren Hang’s that are so powerful and can hold some many things inside, it becomes much more special to exist in the real world. And it’s so important to be in community with everyone. Because as you know, it takes so many people to make a book.
MS: I always work with a designer and a production manager, and a separation person. A lithographer. So, I try to work in a team because I consciously try to work with people that provide me ideas and creativity that I couldn’t achieve on my own. That’s the beauty of the book. If you just make it on your own, which is also great and has its own beauty, but I’d rather work with a team.
JC: It’s about figuring out what you can’t do, isn’t it? But you’re also a New York icon.
MS: I really want to thank my boss, David Strettell, for giving me this position to speak to people.
JC: But you really turned that opportunity into something else with your “Favorite Dashwood Friends of the Day.” Did you ever imagine that would become such a big thing?
MS: No! I don’t even think it’s a big thing. Is it?!
JC: I think so! People come from everywhere to get their picture taken by you.
MS: You know, yesterday I asked these two boys, one’s a writer and the other is a DJ, I put it in a reel, “why do people like getting their picture taken by me?” And he said, “everybody needs validation.” I think we need validation, and we need to be recognized.
I take the picture of people coming down here because I want to recognize and treat them well. For me, taking their picture says, “thank you for coming. You’re beautiful, each one of you.” And I want to treat other people the way they treat me. And it doesn’t matter if you have style, are famous, or just a student. I want to show my respect to people regardless of gender, nationality, age. So, taking pictures of people is coming from my idea of respect.
JC: Beautiful.
MS: Or even in Japan, my voice is so soft, because of my voice, the way I talk, and my look, they didn’t treat me seriously. But I know my mind is more than what I look like or what I sound. I always think I work better than what you think I do. But my boss sticked with me. That’s so rare. I’m way too unique to keep as his right hand person. He could have chosen a more star student type. And I’m too unique to keep in one place, but he found my goodness.
JC: You do that for all the photographers you publish as well.
MS: I was scared to make a book with Momo, because nobody knew her. She doesn’t have Facebook, or Twitter, or Instagram. So, I was so scared to introduce her. I remember Nan Goldin came down here and loved her work right away.
JC: That’s how you know, when someone like that picks up on it right away. But we were talking about this when we were emailing back and forth about how your aren’t not queer yourself but have supported queer artists. Like what you’re saying about Momo, and you stuck by here even when people weren’t sure about it. And that is one of the most powerful things anybody can do for another person.
MS: I think finding people’s beast and saying, “it’s ok to be wild,” is what I am here for.